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In this episode, you will hear from a guest who went back to financial services after completing his MBA, but nine years later, a company divestiture made him realize that he needed to take charge of his career, and he shifted to Tech with the help of a career coach. Whether you have been overlooked for a promotion, are going through a company reorg, or have hit a plateau at work, this episode is for you. 

Transcript

Victoria Hefty (00:00):

Hi, I'm Victoria Hefty and welcome to the Post MBA Pivot podcast, where I show stories of professionals who took unexpected, interesting, or unique paths after graduating from business school. Today, you'll hear from a guest who went back to financial services after completing his MBA. But nine years later, a company divestiture made him realize that he needed to take charge of his own career, and he shifted to tech with the help of a career coach. Whether you've been overlooked for promotion, are going through a company reorg, or hit a plateau at work, this episode is for you. As always, I like to dive right in and get the conversation going.

Victoria Hefty (00:43):

What was the background or the motivation for going to business school?

Post MBA Guest (00:47):

Yeah, for me, the motivation was largely to just create a financial floor up under me. If I'm really honest about it, growing up, there was a lot of insecurity when it came to money. I was the first in the family to graduate from college and just all sorts of challenges growing up. Just always had me feeling like there was some scarcity going on. I was really motivated by the desire to, again, just put that floor up under me on how far I might fall, if things kind of went off the rails. So that, along with being able to just bring resources back to help my immediate family and potential future family, was also a big motivator. And I think the third factor was ensuring that I had the skills and capabilities that would allow me to help my community.

Post MBA Guest (01:36):

I think that who we are, the things we learn, the skills we have and all of our capabilities, we carry in every aspect of life with us. And so I knew the things that I learned there would be meaningful in being able to sit on a nonprofit board or just helping to further community in general.

Victoria Hefty (01:52):

So then when you were at business school, what were you thinking professional wise? Were you one of those people that knew exactly what you wanted to do? Or you were floating around and then recruiting passed and you're like, "What happened?"

Post MBA Guest (02:04):

I was one of those floaters. If I remember, I wrote my essays around wanting to do consulting. I figured that would be the best arena to continue to build out my skill set, right, what everybody says. The thing is, before business school, I was a bank examiner and so I did a lot of travel with the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation or FDIC.

Post MBA Guest (02:25):

And as soon as I got accepted into Booth, I had a couple of examinations that were where I was stationed in Columbia, South Carolina at the time. And so I got to spend the night in my bed for a month straight, which was the first time I had done that in about two years. And I was like, Oh, I don't think I want to be consulting anymore. So yeah, once I actually got into Booth, I had no idea what the next stage would be. And so, yeah, I was trying to just figure out what the future looked like from there. Thought I might do general management. I knew I didn't want to do investment banking though I still almost got pulled into that simply because, I mean, everybody was doing it.

Victoria Hefty (03:00):

A vortex.

Post MBA Guest (03:01):

Yeah, that vortex, and somehow ended up in financial services still despite telling myself that I wouldn't go back in that direction. And it happened anyway, which I'm not upset about. I mean, it was a great learning experience, but that wasn't the plan at all.

Victoria Hefty (03:18):

If you had to be honest with yourself, what led you there? Was it availability? Was it scared of trying something new? All of the above? What was it?

Post MBA Guest (03:25):

All of the above. I mean, it's a space that I was familiar with so there was that level of kind of comfort. As well as, I mean, whenever we were coming out, the economy was in a very different place on the back end of the recession. And so I remember I studied abroad in Australia and that was during the winter quarter of the second year and I had nothing lined up. And so there was this sort of pressure to get something, especially if you're hearing all your classmates talk about like where they're going full time and you feel like you're sort of out of the loop.

Post MBA Guest (03:58):

And, yeah, then one of the banks reached out about a leadership program. I'm like, All right, you know, this sounds good. And interviewed and got it. And that was that.

Victoria Hefty (04:07):

So fast forward. You're in financial services where you didn't want to be necessarily. Give me a moment, a time, a scenario where something shifted in you. So it can be either you realized you didn't want it to be there. Or you just had a moment of, This is just not what I'm meant to be doing. Or you met someone and were inspired to move on. So it can be any of those. But I love moments where you're like it was a Wednesday, I was sitting down or whatever.

Post MBA Guest (04:36):

So when it comes to the finance function, because that's what I was doing at first, I remember we went through a divestiture of the business that I was in. And prior to the divestiture, I feel like I had a good manager, a good managing director. And we had a clear sense on where I wanted to go and sort of a game plan that was in place. Well, whenever that divestiture happened, everybody jumped ship. And so all of a sudden I'm just sort of there with no sort of senior support above me who can help me on this roadmap that we'd sort of created. And that was a moment that was extremely scary to me because all of a sudden I have new leadership who's in place who had a plan for me that was very different than what I'd scoped out with the managers before. And it was at that moment that I realized I had to completely take charge of my own career and really just be responsible for it myself and drive things on my own versus allowing other people to essentially have me play a part in the plans they had.

Post MBA Guest (05:46):

And so that's when I shifted out of finance into business strategy. I had to make a pivot, right? So I went to business strategy still with the same company, but moved across the country and into something that I felt resonated more with what my long-term desires were. You know, at Booth I focused, my concentration was general management. It wasn't finance. And so I knew from the very beginning that I wanted to have that sort of broad view. And so, yeah, that was one of the major moments. The second moment that happened that led me away from financial services altogether was, if I'm honest, I got looked over for a promotion and I hated the excuses that were given to me because I took the role in business strategy... It was a lateral move. It wasn't a promotion for me, but yet people were treating me as if like, "You need to pay more dues."

Post MBA Guest (06:36):

And, you know, these sort of terms where I'm just like, You all are telling me that I'm one of the highest performers here, that quite frankly, better than some of these other folks who are on other teams in higher positions. And yet you're telling me that I need to pay dues. And I really had this sort of reflection at that point on like, What was my actual goal? The goal in taking that different role was to gain specific skills and experiences and capabilities so that I would be attractive outside of finance. And so that I could have enough history behind me to say that I'm skilled at doing XYZ versus just this finance sort of stuff. And I started asking myself, Is it necessary that I have the promotion to say that I have those skills or experiences or do I already have them and I can move on?

Post MBA Guest (07:22):

And once I realized that I had them already and I didn't need to hold myself to this arbitrary sort of new title or something like that, it gave me the freedom to walk away and start looking again and continue on the path of what I felt my career goals and purpose actually were.

Victoria Hefty (07:43):

Yeah. Sort of debating these decisions. So when you moved first across divisions, and then now you're moving out, what is usually your thought process? Looking back, it's easy to say you made the pivot, but how do you sort of approach thinking about it?

Post MBA Guest (07:56):

Well, I feel the second one was a bit more structured than the first one, like moving across the country into business strategy, honestly, that was a situation that took me by surprise. I actually don't remember ever applying for the role. And at that point I was interviewing outside of the bank and I was determined that I wasn't going to take another role internally.

Post MBA Guest (08:16):

I remember when the manager reached out to me and he was like, "Oh, you want to have a video interview?" And I'm like, "Sure." And at the beginning of the conversation, I was so just sort of like slumped in my seat, like, I'm going to hear you out, but like, there's no way. I'm not interested in this. I don't even know how you got my resume, or why we're talking, but it's whatever.

Post MBA Guest (08:34):

But the more he talked about it, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is exactly what I want. So I started sitting up straight and like let me straighten my jacket. And so, I mean, that was really just like a fortuitous sort of thing that happened there that was again, just in line with what I wanted. And I was willing to, at that point again, I've been in New York for about six years and it seems like a lot of the community that I had there was starting to move on too. And so it just felt like this good sort of transition point for me to make a move myself. I didn't want to be the last one at the party in New York, whenever the lights come on. And so that was that.

Post MBA Guest (09:11):

The move out of financial services was more structured. I was in Seattle, which of course is a big tech haven. When I first moved there, I was literally across the street from Amazon and then our office was where Zillow's headquartered. And so I knew that I wanted to move into the tech space and I asked a couple of people around me on how they made transitions. And they said they got a career coach. And so that's what I did. I reached out and got myself a career coach because in talking to those around me who'd made that transition, a thing that became apparent to me was that's where I was at my career.

Post MBA Guest (09:47):

That was a necessary thing. It's almost like GMAT prep or something like that, right? Like there's these things that people are doing to give them the best chance possible, but if everybody's doing it, it's not just something that you should do, it's damn near a requirement. And so once I heard that from multiple people, I'm like, Okay, now I need to go ahead and do this. Otherwise I'm putting myself at a disadvantage in trying to make that sort of move. And that was one of the greatest decisions in the world because the career coach helped, one, just gives me confidence. Giving me confidence in what I was trying to do, that it was possible, that despite having spent almost nine years at the same company in financial services, I could make this move because that was one thing that you hear too. Like, "If you don't do it in the first four to five years, then you're going to be pigeon-holed there and you can never get out."

Post MBA Guest (10:36):

And I'm like, Oh my God, I'll be stuck in finance forever. It was nuts. And so just having an outside voice, who's an expert who could just help calm my nerves and give me the confidence to start thinking more broadly about making this sort of move, as well as come up with a game plan, was just an absolute game changer. But yeah, that was part of my methodology. But then she helped add a lot of pieces to it as well that I think helped carry me forward.

Victoria Hefty (11:03):

And so I always hear a lot of people they're like, "I want to go into tech." And sometimes I feel like they don't know necessarily what that means, but it seems like the thing. What did you think of when you thought of tech? Like I wanted to do that, but now that you're in it or have been in it, what do you actually think of tech? Has your views of the industry changed or what you thought it was? Or just anything about sort of the notion of what you thought it was saying it, and then actually having lived it?

Post MBA Guest (11:31):

When I thought of tech, I thought of equity when it comes down to it, I mean, in anything it's all about equity.

Victoria Hefty (11:38):

Why was that important? We know the dollars, but I think as it relates to your story earlier, a bit, your motivation for going to business school, was there something more there?

Post MBA Guest (11:47):

I think so it's knowing that I have a piece of something that I think is going to be around for a long time. Right? And it's just building the pieces of stability that I felt I didn't have growing up and that I felt my family didn't have and my parents didn't have in their careers. Even anybody who was right around me in Winston-Salem. Yeah. Like knowing that I own a part of this that you can't take from me, you can fire me, but I still have that equity. That's fine.

Victoria Hefty (12:17):

No, I mean, listen, it's a game changer. And then, so now having been in it, do you still see equity or do you actually even see more than that?

Post MBA Guest (12:26):

One, I still see that. And that's still a very, very important component to me. But I also see how, despite how large these tech companies are and these brands are, and the name recognition that they have. I feel like we're honestly just now coming into the technology era as a country, as a society this week was earnings week and everybody is like, crushing it going nuts. Right? Like the cloud is exploding across Microsoft, Amazon and Google. And of course, last year with all that happened in the pandemic, Zoom became everybody's thing to use, right? Like the workplace sort of tool. We're just now, again, coming into this technology age where there's just so much opportunity to help shape what the future is.

Post MBA Guest (13:19):

Like, the thing that's changed for me is my understanding of what tech is, as well as some of the magic around it gone. Like tech has another job. There's nothing magical going on over here with respect to like the day-to-day, necessarily, from just like that functional sort of step. It's a job, like there's positive, minus, but people like to speak about certain places or industries as if it's fantastical. And of course there are workplaces that are better than others, but it's still a job. A dream job is still a job. I don't actually dream about work. I dream about being on the beach or something else. Like it's still a job. But that being said, one thing that is fascinating is how the technology industry is creating tomorrow in a way that, and at a speed that I don't think people outside of it appreciate. The things that we work on internally and that I'm working on, are products and capabilities that probably won't hit their stride for another couple of years.

Post MBA Guest (14:27):

And that's amazing to me when you're literally making decisions today on what the world will be like in a year or two. That's nuts and fascinating. And I love that aspect.

Victoria Hefty (14:36):

Exactly. Well, I kind of want to know a little bit more about how you got to your current role. So you made the leap from financial services. You were in tech. So then the first stint in tech, what moment they're sort of prompted, if you had to look back and say, what was the one thing that pushed you into your current role and company? What was that?

Post MBA Guest (14:57):

Yeah, no, a good question. That career coach was extremely helpful in allowing me to package the experiences I had before in a way that was attractive to my current company. So I've been in the tech space for about a year now, and it was a long journey to get here.

Post MBA Guest (15:17):

In my prior role, I did a good bit of work in just the partnership space and working with like some commercial real estate technology companies. But I don't think that my experiences at first were conveying my capabilities as well as what I was doing in a way that was attractive to this new industry, this new world. So there were two things that were really sort of critical for me. One, my network, having friends who were in the tech space already, who I had to operate in absolute humbleness with and take my resume to them and say, "Hey, don't be nice about this. Please weigh in on this." Because I was so just financial services focused in my head that even terms on there that I thought weren't bank-y. They're like, "No, I don't know what in the world that means."

Victoria Hefty (16:13):

I have done so many resumes and reviews and to the person it makes sense. And I'm like, What language is this?

Post MBA Guest (16:20):

Right. That's a huge thing. Like, language is so critical because XFN versus cross-functional versus cross collaboration. It's like, okay, all these things that mean the same thing, but depending on which sort of industry you're in and what that nomenclature is, it's very important that you speak their language.

Victoria Hefty (16:39):

Yeah. It lets them know whether are you an insider, are you an outsider? You get their world. And then they apply that to other things.

Post MBA Guest (16:46):

Right. And so it was having my network as well as the career coach who could look at my resume and help me make bullets sharper, essentially, techify it so I looked like I was somebody in tech who worked at the bank and that I needed to come over to where I really belong, as well as the thing that was really, really critical too with the career coach was helping me be more succinct and just sharper in my points. Especially as I was trying to switch away from financial services and pivot away from this, essentially almost six, seven years of heavy finance experience and surface these last three, three and a half years of other experience I was like, Okay, how can we punch this up a bit?

Post MBA Guest (17:27):

Or even in the financial services, like what were some of the experiences you had that you can surface that speak to your ability to do exactly what you will be doing in this new industry, but that aren't about forecasting or just some of that heavy finance stuff? And so that was really, really crucial for me, again, that humbleness though, that humbleness is, I think one of the most important things.

Victoria Hefty (17:51):

Yes. Let's talk about this. Network, I feel as MBAs, what you perceive, all of the things that you both want help, but you don't want to ask for it and you don't even want to feel like you need it. So how were you able to push through any of those if you had them as potentially blocks? Because it's a real problem. I know people that would rather not ask for help and figure it out themselves, then have to humble themselves to be like, "Actually I do need help." And how do you get over that?

Post MBA Guest (18:21):

Booth classmates were extremely gracious and kind of taught me how to use my network. I remember earlier on whenever I was still in New York and was interested in having some interviews with another company, I reached out to one of our classmates and we hadn't chatted in a few years, but we were pretty close at Booth. And, you know, hit him up on LinkedIn. We hopped on a call and within 30 seconds, "Hey man, what can I do for you?" And it took me back, right? Because I'm like, Oh, I thought I needed to do this sort of like dance. And I appreciated the honesty that he operated with, where it was like, "No, no, no, what can I do for you? This is why we know each other. Like, I want to help you. It's not important." Like, you know, not that what's going on in our life isn't important, but like, this is why we exist in each other's lives.

Post MBA Guest (19:18):

I had a couple of experiences like that, which helped me to understand that if they're operating this way, it's because others have operated like this towards them, one. Two, it also lets me know that they must have used and leveraged that capability and just that network that others extend to them whenever they operated like this. And so I need to be doing it as well. Right? It just sort of gave me insight into how others were playing the game. Or not even playing the game, that sounds sort of negative, but like in how others were leveraging their network and just utilizing what they had. Between that and knowing that I didn't know a lot of people in the tech space outside of people who I knew really quickly, it became apparent to me that I can either try to bluster this on my own and it's going to take a lot longer or I can just talk to people and ask like, all right.

Post MBA Guest (20:18):

I went to actually a couple of Booth events and people there were very eager to help. Like when I'd tell them I was looking, they'd just tell me, "Oh, reach out to me." And it was just that sort of openness that kind of, I think, grease the wheels for me to become more comfortable in being proactive and kind of just reaching out to people for informational conversations or sending out messages to classmates on LinkedIn or just to older alums on LinkedIn or younger alums on LinkedIn even. But it all started with those first couple of people in the network who were just very upfront, "What can I do for you?" That sort of let me know that that's okay. It's okay to operate that way.

Victoria Hefty (21:00):

So in your mind, what do you think if you had someone that was resisting reaching out, right. Resisting this conversations, what would you say, looking back, the benefit of speaking to people? What did it get that in this big information age you can't get from listening to a podcast or going online or whatever, that you feel has clearly played a critical role for you in your transition?

Post MBA Guest (21:25):

There's a lot of data. The difference between data and information is information is something I can ask you. Data is just sort of noise, right? Like we're drowning in data. And the information that can help you make decisions is going to be locked up in people who are closest to the spaces that you want to make a decision towards or about. Right? And so it was in those conversations with individuals where they let me know what was going on on their teams and what was going on in teams around them. Or what was about to be posted or why something isn't posted to just who can I talk to because there's an expected reorg. Or when not to apply, because there's about to be a reorg or we're about to go on hiring freeze. Right? All that sort of inside information was very, very valuable to me in thinking about where to apply, the sort of roles I might be interested in, what a team does, right?

Post MBA Guest (22:17):

Because quite frankly, strategy, what is strategy? It depends on who you're talking to. It depends on the company and it depends on how that's sort of structured. And so you sort of hear these generic terms of operation strategy, even finance. It means totally different things, depending on the industry, the company, the team, the manager. And so that's what having those personal conversations with people allowed me to surface. It let me know exactly what it is I might actually be applying to. Or what I wanted to apply to that I didn't know I actually wanted to apply to because that term wasn't on my radar whenever it's exactly what I want. It's just different nomenclature over in that arena.

Victoria Hefty (22:58):

So you're in your current role, what do you see is next for you?

Post MBA Guest (23:02):

Well, being in the company that I'm at now, it's involved in so many different spaces that I see a ton of just opportunity. A lot of spaces that I can potentially move into, whether it's the AR-VR, which I think will be huge for the future. Whether it's the crypto space, which of course is already starting to take off. But I think still has a huge runway in front of it. I think those are two areas that I'm really sort of interested in, especially like the crypto, given my financial services background. I think that could be something that pairs up really well.

Post MBA Guest (23:34):

However, I'm also trying to ensure that I remain open and move towards that which interests me versus necessarily leveraging what I've done before just because I've done it and it's not what I want. And I know that somebody might consider that bad advice because it means there's more zig and zagging versus that straight line up. But I'm more interested in having fun and enjoying what I'm doing versus having a title and being senior in a space that I have no desire to be in.

Victoria Hefty (24:09):

If someone said, you know, you woke up and you feel like you want to be in the entertainment business, you want to be a strategist in entertainment. Knowing this journey of pivoting that you've done, what are three steps you would take to try and see if that was for you?

Post MBA Guest (24:25):

Well, one, networking, again, right? Like talking to people around me who are either in that space or who can put me in touch with folks who are in that space. Two, research, right? Just doing your due diligence on people who are in roles that you might be interested in. I love LinkedIn. LinkedIn might be my favorite social media account because, oh my God, I look up everybody on LinkedIn.

Victoria Hefty (24:47):

It is an under-utilized tool.

Post MBA Guest (24:49):

Right? Like it is incredible. I love looking up people's profiles and to just get a high level of sense of what were their skills and background they needed to get into certain areas. And I'm always fascinated whenever it's like something that doesn't make sense. Because that sort of indicates to me that, Oh, that was a pivot point, which lets me know that, okay, it can happen. And that might be someone I want to get in touch with to understand this sort of part that doesn't make sense. And you know, how they sort of made that happen.

Post MBA Guest (25:18):

So, one, network. Two, doing your due diligence. And then, three, finding the opportunity to pilot that, if you will, using a tech term. To just pilot your experience in that sort of space. There's a lot of people and a lot of businesses now that [inaudible 00:25:36] being here in LA, right? Like there's no shortage of people who are in entertainment around me that I know. They may not work for the company or the brand or whatever that I'm trying to target, if that is my goal, but so what? The experience is the experience. I think one of the key things that I've learned is to stop putting so much stock into what other people determine as valuable. You get to determine what's valuable, one, in your own life, two, for your own career, and then, three, even brands that are meaningful to you.

Post MBA Guest (26:04):

I think as a black person, a person of color, we should be really aware and we have even this higher level of experience and understanding that something is valuable if we say so. And I say that because for so much time and so much of the areas and industries and music and parts of our culture, for so long, they were undervalued because those who were outside of our culture didn't see them as valuable. And then they become part of mainstream, they become more valuable once like certain brands and all that get attached it. And the thing is, the quality was the quality before they saw it. And so nobody gets to decide what's valuable but you. And that's critical because if you don't get that, then you will overlook an opportunity that is beautiful and directly in line with what you want because somebody else hasn't validated it for you by either funding it or by acquiring it or putting it in Wall Street Journal or at the top of LinkedIn or something like that. When the truth is like, what are you actually after? Like, what do you want to do?

Post MBA Guest (27:15):

Because you can make that valuable to where other people can find... That's what entrepreneurship is, right? Like, you see something that other people don't and then whenever they finally catch up, that's where funding comes along. That's when a rich star is like, "Oh, how'd you do this? Did you believe..." I always believed in this, right? Like that's why I started it. Like, you all finally caught up with what I saw. And I think, you know, that's a very important thing because there's a lot of underappreciated opportunity all around us that we can add value to that then can be leveraged into either that bigger brand or you make that that bigger brand. And next thing you know, you sort of took off in something that you didn't even expect to.

Victoria Hefty (27:52):

I think you said something that is so important and I only have one more final question. Overlooking both opportunities, but I think also people in your network that could help you. I think they're all part of the same thing that you've said so beautifully. And I can't wait to listen back to that. And it's something that I'm going to actually share with people because I think that that is really important. And so that leads me to my final question of, so you've taken this time out of your day to share your story. How does it feel to even talking about it? What is the retelling? Did it bring up anything of sort of where you are? How you got here?

Post MBA Guest (28:30):

Oh, wow. I'm super grateful. It's humbling. I say I'm grateful because I didn't know what I could do. I didn't know I could do this.

Post MBA Guest (28:43):

I remember the lack of confidence I had in Booth. The just uncertainty. I know we all go through it to some extent of, you know, the imposter syndrome or whatever you want to call it. And it made me shy away from certain things and certain opportunities. And when I look back now at how I've been able to, you know, career pivot, switch locations, and ultimately do whatever it took to get to where I want it to be, I'm super grateful because I think it's a testament to me having listened to those who were giving advice and being humble enough to actually follow it, right? Like again, I think being humble is a huge thing because it will allow you to receive from others. It will allow you to ask from others and it will allow you to be able to receive.

Post MBA Guest (29:39):

You can't receive something that somebody isn't giving. And oftentimes people won't give if you won't ask. And so therefore it all starts with being humble enough to put down your ego and put down your, "Oh, I went to Booth or I went to this place or that place. And so I should have it figured out." No, no, no. Going there allowed you to have a certain type of community around you who you can leverage and you should leverage even more because the info they have is enormous and the value they have is phenomenal. Yeah. As I reflect back on all of this, like I'm humbled and because of all of that, I very much believe in paying it forward. Like I'm very much believe in paying it forward.

Victoria Hefty (30:26):

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you are interested in crafting your next career move or reading the transcript of the conversation, please visit postmbapivot.com. Finally, if you enjoyed today's discussion, make sure to leave a review and subscribe to receive the next episode.